SPN Meta: In Defense of Sam
Mar. 4th, 2006 11:04 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
scribblinlenoreHello, my name is Lenore, and I will be your Sam Winchester apologist for the day. 'Cause the things people say about Sammy? Oh, they disturb me. Here are some thoughts on why I think people misread Sam, and also some optimism about that scene in "Shadow," you know the one I mean.
Why people spend good money on therapy to learn to be more like Sam Winchester
I realize that the great balance of love in Supernatural fandom is for Dean, and, hey, that's cool. I love him, too. But I identify more with Sam. I have that role in my family, the one who moved away, who chose not to replicate my parents' life, and so I have empathy for how difficult it is for him to strike out on his own, to be who he can be, not who his family would like him to be.
It makes me sad that people routinely call him stupid and selfish and immature when he's none of those things. I can't begin to guess how many times I've seen people tell him to grow up in their posts, and I'm always thinking: But can't you see that's exactly what he's doing? The primary drama of young adulthood is to figure out how you can be your own person and still have your family. That's what Sam is struggling with, and it may not always be pretty, but it's a perfectly natural stage of development for someone his age. There's nothing immature about it. Of course, his family doesn't enjoy it. It's not a comfortable process, but that doesn't make it wrong or bad or selfish. In fact, it takes a lot of courage to break away from family tradition, and not everyone has the strength of will to do it.
Dean is a different case because he does want his father's life. So he has nothing to openly rebel against. But that doesn't mean the same process isn't at work in him. We see a little of that in the phone conversation with Sam in "Scarecrow" when he says he wishes he could have stood up to their father a little more. Dean becoming his own person is bound to be a more subtle process, but I think it would be very interesting to see it play out, and I hope we get to.
The bottom line is that neither of them is wrong for wanting what they want and being who they are.
Why THAT conversation in Shadow is not the end of the world (spoilers)
Okay, I was just as gut-punched as everyone else by that scene. Dean's pain HURT me. It hurt us all. But I also felt for Sam. Listen to the way he says "I'd do anything for you", and hear how much he doesn't want to hurt his brother, doesn't want to deny him. At the same time, he can't lie about who he is and what he wants out of life. Disappointing the people you love hurts like hell, but sometimes you just can't do what they want, can't be who they need you to be.
The important thing, I think, is to keep in mind how unrealistic both boys are being in that conversation. Sam just blithely assumes that he can go back to school, go back to being "normal," when the plain fact is that he's not normal and never will be. Even if he does what he intends to do--becomes a lawyer, settles down, has a family--he still knows what he knows, can do what he can do, and that's an unalterable fact of who he is. I think, in time, he'll come to accept that, find some way to bridge the two worlds. Have some permanence, which he seems to crave, but also be the Winchester that he is.
Dean is equally unrealistic in thinking that things can go back to the way they were. It's not ever going to be the three of them hunting things together like the old days, because that was their life when they were children. Family dynamics change when children become adults, that's a simple fact, and you can't hold on to outmoded ways of relating to one another. It makes all the sense in the world to me that Dean would want to try--because this is where he's found his sense of security. So of course that conversation with Sam feels like a loss to him. Dean has some parentified feelings toward his brother, and in many ways he's the one having separation anxiety because Sam is growing up. One of the things parents have to learn to accept is that a child can love them dearly and still want to be different from them, and I think that's something Dean will ultimately realize. That when Sam says he doesn't want this life he's not saying there's something wrong with Dean's choices and he's certainly not saying that he doesn't want to be Dean's brother.
The story of Supernatural opens with a schism between Sam and his brother and father. It gives a very black-and-white sense that Sam has to choose between his family and his dream of a normal life, that he can't have both. It's a false sense of mutual exclusivity, and as the story unfolds the characters seem to begin to realize this. Everything Sam and Dean have been through together, the reunion between Sam and his father…it's served to remind them how important they all are to each other, has made them realize that allowing the family to fracture again would be the worst mistake they could make. Sam is busy learning that he doesn't have to throw his family overboard to be himself. Dean needs to figure out that they don't have to share the same life or the same dreams to be family. No matter how things work out, Sam will always be a Winchester, and they will all always love each other. It may be hard at times, and it may take some work to figure out how they can be close and still have their independence. But, hey, people do that all day every day. Surely, a family as extraordinary as the Winchesters can handle it.
Why people spend good money on therapy to learn to be more like Sam Winchester
I realize that the great balance of love in Supernatural fandom is for Dean, and, hey, that's cool. I love him, too. But I identify more with Sam. I have that role in my family, the one who moved away, who chose not to replicate my parents' life, and so I have empathy for how difficult it is for him to strike out on his own, to be who he can be, not who his family would like him to be.
It makes me sad that people routinely call him stupid and selfish and immature when he's none of those things. I can't begin to guess how many times I've seen people tell him to grow up in their posts, and I'm always thinking: But can't you see that's exactly what he's doing? The primary drama of young adulthood is to figure out how you can be your own person and still have your family. That's what Sam is struggling with, and it may not always be pretty, but it's a perfectly natural stage of development for someone his age. There's nothing immature about it. Of course, his family doesn't enjoy it. It's not a comfortable process, but that doesn't make it wrong or bad or selfish. In fact, it takes a lot of courage to break away from family tradition, and not everyone has the strength of will to do it.
Dean is a different case because he does want his father's life. So he has nothing to openly rebel against. But that doesn't mean the same process isn't at work in him. We see a little of that in the phone conversation with Sam in "Scarecrow" when he says he wishes he could have stood up to their father a little more. Dean becoming his own person is bound to be a more subtle process, but I think it would be very interesting to see it play out, and I hope we get to.
The bottom line is that neither of them is wrong for wanting what they want and being who they are.
Why THAT conversation in Shadow is not the end of the world (spoilers)
Okay, I was just as gut-punched as everyone else by that scene. Dean's pain HURT me. It hurt us all. But I also felt for Sam. Listen to the way he says "I'd do anything for you", and hear how much he doesn't want to hurt his brother, doesn't want to deny him. At the same time, he can't lie about who he is and what he wants out of life. Disappointing the people you love hurts like hell, but sometimes you just can't do what they want, can't be who they need you to be.
The important thing, I think, is to keep in mind how unrealistic both boys are being in that conversation. Sam just blithely assumes that he can go back to school, go back to being "normal," when the plain fact is that he's not normal and never will be. Even if he does what he intends to do--becomes a lawyer, settles down, has a family--he still knows what he knows, can do what he can do, and that's an unalterable fact of who he is. I think, in time, he'll come to accept that, find some way to bridge the two worlds. Have some permanence, which he seems to crave, but also be the Winchester that he is.
Dean is equally unrealistic in thinking that things can go back to the way they were. It's not ever going to be the three of them hunting things together like the old days, because that was their life when they were children. Family dynamics change when children become adults, that's a simple fact, and you can't hold on to outmoded ways of relating to one another. It makes all the sense in the world to me that Dean would want to try--because this is where he's found his sense of security. So of course that conversation with Sam feels like a loss to him. Dean has some parentified feelings toward his brother, and in many ways he's the one having separation anxiety because Sam is growing up. One of the things parents have to learn to accept is that a child can love them dearly and still want to be different from them, and I think that's something Dean will ultimately realize. That when Sam says he doesn't want this life he's not saying there's something wrong with Dean's choices and he's certainly not saying that he doesn't want to be Dean's brother.
The story of Supernatural opens with a schism between Sam and his brother and father. It gives a very black-and-white sense that Sam has to choose between his family and his dream of a normal life, that he can't have both. It's a false sense of mutual exclusivity, and as the story unfolds the characters seem to begin to realize this. Everything Sam and Dean have been through together, the reunion between Sam and his father…it's served to remind them how important they all are to each other, has made them realize that allowing the family to fracture again would be the worst mistake they could make. Sam is busy learning that he doesn't have to throw his family overboard to be himself. Dean needs to figure out that they don't have to share the same life or the same dreams to be family. No matter how things work out, Sam will always be a Winchester, and they will all always love each other. It may be hard at times, and it may take some work to figure out how they can be close and still have their independence. But, hey, people do that all day every day. Surely, a family as extraordinary as the Winchesters can handle it.
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Date: 2006-03-04 04:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 04:47 pm (UTC)I'm sometimes curious about how atitudes toward Sam would break down by age. Because sometimes it's easier to have sympathy toward a messy stage of development when it's firmly in your own past than when you're either going through it or have just finished it. Or perhaps understanding for Sam is just inversely proportional to how hot someone thinks Jensen is. *g*
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Date: 2006-03-04 04:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 04:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 04:49 pm (UTC)And so, while there was much angsting and inner rage about this in those 16-23 years (where I'm placing Sam, chronologically), it was always about internalizing, never saying those things aloud, b/c I knew that in the end, it would just be empty words with lingering hurts.
So for me, while I can intellectually understand the logic of your reading and I think it's excellent meta, it's not something I can buy into emotionally because -- and I freely admit this is my world view -- family and others are more important to me than what I want, and submerging or subsuming parts of myself for them isn't a sacrifice, it's just what's done.
That, I think, is why Dean is such a resonant character for me, because I see in him the person who know sthat there might be "more" out there for him, but knows that finding himself isn't worth the cost to others, to his father, to the people he's saving through what he does, and even to Sam.
I guess the best analogy I can make to explain my feelings about the show and the characters is that Sam's "normal life" is my secret dream of a career in musical theatre; I had some talent, I had the love, I had the desire, but money for the family finances and the need to help in caregiving trumped that by far. Coming from a background, and a Southern culture, that emphasizes loyalty to blood above all else, it's just really, really hard for me to see Sam's attitude as anything more than tilting at windmills, something we all leave behind one day when we do "grow up".
I apologize for highjacking your journal, and I hope I don't come across as criticising you -- I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure that most of us can divorce our feelings toward Sam/Dean from our own feelings about fmaily loyalty -- I think that's one of the things that makes the show so compelling!
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:10 pm (UTC)And please don't misunderstand me. I'm not criticizing Dean's choices--or yours--what I want to say is that both are equally valid. Because people have different constitutions, and they necessarily make different choices.
For me personally, I have the most love and energy and care to give my family when I'm leading the life that feels authentic for me. One of my worst character failings is that I'm given to deep resentments, and it's cancerous for my relationships. So doing what my parents wanted (and as it turns out it's only what they *thought* they wanted) would have benefitted no one. Then again, my parents are still relatively young and healthy. When they get older, I may well make a different choice. But the important thing for me is that it will be my choice.
In the end, I truly believe that a person can only do what a person can do. Dean is capable of one thing, Sam another.
As for family loyalty, that's another thing that's given to interpretation. I don't see it as being disloyal to be myself and lead the life that works for me. I just have never viewed it in those terms. I will never believe that I *owe* someone my life. And I don't believe that Sam does, either.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:04 pm (UTC)The life Sam leads now is dangerous, painful and totally unpredictable. As a person who had a somewhat tumultuous childhood (like Sam's was), I fully understand his desire to create a life that is stable and secure, the need to get away from the drama.
But Sam is like Buffy to me. No matter how much they desire a "normal" life the knowledge that they have and the need to do what they can will always keep them from being content in that life.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 05:22 pm (UTC)I agree with your RL observations about Sam completely. Moving away from everyone and everything you know is hard. It would be even worse with the guilt of the fact your brother and dad are out risking their lives on a daily basis.
As far as "growing up", huh? Sam is by far the more mature one emotionally of the two. He got to go away, to reset his expectations of human interaction based on a wider pool of associates than fellow demon hunters and crazed beasts.
It's not ever going to be the three of them hunting things together like the old days, because that was their life when they were children. Family dynamics change when children become adults, that's a simple fact, and you can't hold on to outmoded ways of relating to one another.
Oh, Lenore, that's exactly what I thought during that speech. I was *crushed* by Dean's little boy view of how they could all just be a family again forever and ever, and you *know* that's what he's been cherishing deep in his heart the whole time Sam's been gone. And then Sam came *back*! Just like Dean always knew he would! And Dean pretended it was all the same again.
I was just going to type up how I think (fundamentally) that many of Dean's issues with allowing Sam to have his own life (or how it looks to other that he doesn't want him to) is a daddy complex with Sam--but you hit that one already.
In conclusion: yes.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:41 pm (UTC)I was *crushed* by Dean's little boy view of how they could all just be a family again forever and ever, and you *know* that's what he's been cherishing deep in his heart the whole time Sam's been gone. And then Sam came *back*! Just like Dean always knew he would! And Dean pretended it was all the same again.
*cries* Oh, my God, it's just so sad, Kassie! *cries some more* There's just this hole in Dean, and he's trying to fill it up with his brother and his father and the past and the family business, but that's never going to work. When Sam asked him that question, "aren't there things you want," I really don't think Dean knows the answer to that.
I was just going to type up how I think (fundamentally) that many of Dean's issues with allowing Sam to have his own life (or how it looks to other that he doesn't want him to) is a daddy complex with Sam--but you hit that one already.
Dude, you should totally post, because there's so much more to say about that. I just got...tired. *g*
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:25 pm (UTC)It's funny, I must hang out with the Sammy!Girls because I always feel like I have to justify and defend my Dean!Love.
They both make me really, really happy, especially together. :)
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:44 pm (UTC)But I totally agree. It's the boys TOGETHER that I really love, each just the way he is. *adores them*
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:33 pm (UTC)I think both boys are just so human! That's what makes the show so great. They are going to make mistakes and be jerks and confused and broken and all of that stuff, which is a lovely counter to the inhuman stuff they deal with every day. It doesn't work if they are exactly the same guy, doing it for exactly the same reason!
I love Dean and I love Sammy and I wouldn't want them to be any other way than they are right now. It would just be boring! Besides, look at that adorable woobie face!! *squishes him*
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:51 pm (UTC)Then again, it's not like I don't believe that Dean's choices and feelings are equally valid. His dedication to his family is beautiful. I really feel that. I just don't think it makes Sam a bad person for not wanting or being able to follow the same course. In the end, Dean is being who he *is*, doing what he loves the most. I just want Sam to have the same chance.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:34 pm (UTC)As the only member of my family who moved away (like, way far), I totally see where Sam is coming from. I love my family with everything in me, and they love me back just as much. I even tried moving back home when my sister got pregnant with her first kid, but after a couple of years, I realized this isn't me. Home will always be home, but it's not where I am. And that's where Dean & Sam & John need to get to, and I think one day they'll do it. The conversation between them broke my heart, but it needed to happen. Dean needs to see Sam as an adult with his own choice, and Sam needs to fully realize that he'll never be quit of this life. And John needs to trust his boys to make those decisions, and not go overboard with the protection.
Honestly, anyone that can't see the beautiful complexities in the Winchester family are either a) teenagers with that lovely black & white view of everything or b) people who don't have family (they have relatives, but not that overwhelming connection). Their loss. The writers on the show are doing a bang-up job on the family dynamic & the actors are doing a great job conveying it.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:08 pm (UTC)*nods* The thinking seems to be that since Dean and their father are both risking their lives to help protect people from evil it's just abysmally selfish of Sam not to pitch in and do his part. I think that really ratchets up people's disapproval of Sam because the other two Winchesters are making decisions that seem so selfless (although I would argue whether it really is, personally I don't think human beings are capable of being selfless). I'm frankly boggled by the notion that just because Sam happened to be born into this family it means he's somehow obliged to risk his life this way.
Dean needs to see Sam as an adult with his own choice, and Sam needs to fully realize that he'll never be quit of this life. And John needs to trust his boys to make those decisions, and not go overboard with the protection.
Exactly! And they're perfectly capable of doing this. Just because they have certain attitudes and perceptions now doesn't mean that they always will. My experience of moving away from my family was that it was a growth opportunity for everyone. We *all* learned something from it and were smart, healthier and happier for that.
A lot of fans of the show are young, and I think that might explain some of the anti-Sam feeling. Also, a lot of people are just serious fans of JA, and I suspect that also colors reactions.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:40 pm (UTC)If anything, I would say it's Dean who's more immature in that scene because, like you said, he's clinging to this idealized vision of recreating their childhood, and that would never happen, even if Sam did give up on his normal life kick and stick around. They're adults now. It's never going to be the same. And I love Dean. He's absolutely my favorite. But Sam was right in that scene. He was honest about what he wanted - and that is SO hard to do with the people you love - and you could see how he was touched by Dean's admission and hated to hurt him in the gentle way he let him down.
Ack sorry. Didn't mean to ramble. All the Sam hate floating around is really starting to bug me I guess.
;-)
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:16 pm (UTC)Because as much as that you-just-killed-my-puppy look on Dean's face just killed me absolutely dead, that was not Sam fault. That was all Dean's issues and his unrealistic expectations.
Exactly! One of the hardest things to accept in life is that your choices may cause pain for the people you love, but that doesn't mean your choices are wrong. We all want and expect things from each other that are unrealistic, we all get disappointed, and there's no way to prevent it. All you can do is be as gentle and loving as possible in trying to help the other person adjust. And that is one of the things that was so moving to me about that scene, how both caring and determined Sam was.
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 06:20 pm (UTC)That's very true. Although, being a sap at heart, I like to think that someday they'll be able to come to some kind of compromise about it. Sam's at an age when he's pushing so hard to establish Who He Is, but it will mellow. And as parents everywhere must do, I like to believe that Dean will one day be able to see that he can let Sam go and still have him. *is all optimistic*
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Date: 2006-03-04 05:54 pm (UTC)I'm the one that moved away from home to have my own life. I'm the one that has different opinions than most members of my family. I'm the one that wants a normal, happy life, who struggles to make choices based on what I want instead of what my family wants. Even though it puts me on the outs with them most times.
I haven't said much about it, because quite frankly, I'm afraid of the backlash, but I sympathize with Sam a lot more than Dean. But as you mentioned, it might be because of my personal situation.
And you're totally right. The lives that Sam and Dean want are completely unrealistic. As much as they can try to fit themselves into the molds they see as being "perfect" it'll never happen. They're different people, and I don't think either of them have truly found out who they are yet.
So um, in conclusion...I love Sam!
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:30 pm (UTC)Me too! I end up taking anti-Sam rants pretty personally, because I SO feel how agonizing it is to make the decisions he's making. And it's hard for me to understand how people don't empathize with that.
In the end, I love Sam and Dean TOGETHER, love their relationship, love the Winchester family bond. It's beautiful and fascinating, and it's hard for me to understand how anyone is enjoying the show if they truly dislike one of the characters.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:01 pm (UTC)I also like the idea of the two of them against the world and how obvious it is that they love each other. I can't wait for the no-one-can-pick-on-my-brother-except-me moment that has to be coming in there somewhere. *^_^*
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:33 pm (UTC)But it's definitely their relationship that makes me watch the show. It will never matter to me what they get wrong with the plot because they get the dynamics of the family so right. I love those Winchesters so!
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:03 pm (UTC)Dean resonates more with me in that he... I love his loyalty. I have a *thing* for intensely loyal, family oriented characters with a self-sacrificing streak, but I adore Sam. People expect Sam to have all the answers, to sacrifice what he wants from life for Dean, and sure, I think that there are times when Sam's yearning for something closer to normal colors his view of Dean and his father in a way that's not fair to either one of them, but I think Sam realizes more of this now.
I think Sam realizes now how much he needs his family, how much his family *loves* him. Because, and I think this is important, Sam didn't know everything that was going on. He didn't know that Dean and John continued to care even if they weren't actively seeking him out. He's not omniscient, but he now knows that his father loves him even if he doesn't agree with Sam's choices.
Being young and trying to find your place in life is never easy and given their unique situation, it's even more difficult for Sam and Dean.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:42 pm (UTC)I totally agree with this. I think there's a typical arc to making that transition to your own life, and it starts with a rebellion that is way overmatched to the actual situation, where fairness just goes by the wayside. As you become more confident in your decision to be who you are, you're able to be more generous and fair, to recognize what's wonderful about your family, to realize that they will always be a part of you and to be glad for that. Sam has really made progress since the show started, and it's so cool to see.
Being young and trying to find your place in life is never easy and given their unique situation, it's even more difficult for Sam and Dean.
That's just the truest true thing of all! And it's what makes the show so emotionally compelling. Yay for our boys!
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:03 pm (UTC)*pets all three Winchesters*
M.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 06:05 pm (UTC)And then in "Shadows", you're totally right. We can see how much it tears him up inside to break Dean's heart, but he has to do it anyway because honesty is the one thing he can give his brother in that situation. I was very impressed wiht both characters in that scene, and I loved how the differences between them came so clear.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:48 pm (UTC)That's so well put! You're right. Honesty is the only thing Sam can give Dean in that moment. And for me, the important this is that this conversation is really a beginning, not an end. They don't see things the same way, don't want the same thing--that's true in a lot of families. Now that it's out there on the table, they can work on finding middle ground. They're too important to each other not to.
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:16 pm (UTC)I was just discussing this with a friend yesterday and the fact I refuse to take sides as I understand both Dean and Sam's POVs in this series and you just wrote it the way I can't.
As this entry is unlocked, I'm gonna point my friend here and tell her that see? that's what I meant! Just better written and expressed!
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:54 pm (UTC)As this entry is unlocked, I'm gonna point my friend here and tell her that see? that's what I meant! Just better written and expressed!
Sorry! Actually, this post is locked. I just habitually lock anything that's not fiction. Since a lot of people have shared things about their personal experience in this thread, I don't feel comfortable unlocking it. But if you want to share what I wrote with your friend privately, that's fine with me. :)
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Date: 2006-03-04 06:18 pm (UTC)It's funny, because I was expecting to find his backstory to be overwrought and overdone, but I think it plays out quite sympathetically.
And here's an unpopular opinion... I want JA to tone down the number of sexy smirks. No really. Yes, JA, I do find you smokin', but please limit your eyebrow furl/lip pout to once an episode. Kthxbye!
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:09 pm (UTC)And here's an unpopular opinion... I want JA to tone down the number of sexy smirks. No really. Yes, JA, I do find you smokin', but please limit your eyebrow furl/lip pout to once an episode. Kthxbye!
Hee! He does give good eyebrow furl, though. I gotta say. *g*
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:11 pm (UTC)Im literaly running out the door, but I will come back with smart things another day. in conclusion though: YES. and I love this. and *HEARTS*
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:11 pm (UTC)I have to say that, yeah. I love Dean more. Not because Dean stayed home, but because I think Dean sacrificed a lot more for Sam than Sam will ever understand. *nodnods* As the eldest child, it's easier for me to see things from Dean's point of view than it is for me to see things from Sam's.
But I identify more with Sam. I have that role in my family, the one who moved away, who chose not to replicate my parents' life, and so I have empathy for how difficult it is for him to strike out on his own, to be who he can be, not who his family would like him to be.
We all went away and came back #^_^# So... I guess I find it difficult to understand why Sam wants to leave AGAIN. Well. Not difficult to understand why he wants to stop what they're doing. That's gotta leave a scar. But it's difficult to understand the way he distances himself from his family, I guess. Friends are all well and good, but family's where it's at. You know?? Sam talks like leaving is his only option, and it just isn't, really. They could use a base/guy just for research, you know? And Sam's damn fine at it.
It makes me sad that people routinely call him stupid and selfish and immature when he's none of those things.
I don't think he's stupid or immature (although, GOD, the WANGST), but it's hard for me not to believe that he's selfish. I honestly think that Dean's given up a hell of a lot to be what Sam needs and what their dad needs, and a lot of the time, Sam just treats Dean like shit. o_O; And Dean just... keeps right on giving. Yeah, he's an asshole sometimes, but it's in a really big brother kinda way. Expecting an eldest not to take shots when they're offered is like expecting a coke addict not to fumble for the next line =D
Plus... You know, I can't help feeling like Sam is only with Dean because Dean can help him. Dean can help hunt down this thing and Sam can have revenge and then, boy howdy, he can go back to playing at being normal. Bye bye, big brother. Nice to see you. Don't forget to call now, but not too often because I really don't need the reminder of all this stuff.
I don't know. I'm biased. I went away bound and determined never to come home, and then I did and it was a good thing. So... I really have a hard time understanding Sam. Which is fucked up and wrong and fucked up.
That when Sam says he doesn't want this life he's not saying there's something wrong with Dean's choices and he's certainly not saying that he doesn't want to be Dean's brother.
The problem is that it really does SOUND like that. I don't know. See, there's that perspective thing. ^___^ As the person who went away and separated herself, maybe you can hear that. As the person who went away and came back, and as the eldest, All I can hear is him saying that there IS something wrong with his choices, and that it'd be easier to be Dean's brother from a distance... and that hurts a lot. I can just imagine hearing one of my sisters saying things like that, and it makes me want to come all to pieces.
This isn't so much meant to be argumentative. Just kind of rambling thoughts about it, because I've thought about it several times but not really known how to put it all together. I still don't =D
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:34 pm (UTC)I don't understand how people can dislike Sam so much. Do they just not pay attention???
This was just perfectly laid out, thank you :)
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Date: 2006-03-04 08:10 pm (UTC)But I agree with you. I don't think I could really enjoy this show and this fandom if I didn't like both characters.
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:37 pm (UTC)I can also understand Sam's need to find himself a settled life. I moved around a lot growing up (dad military) and one of my biggest dreams was to find a place to live and never leave. Though, in practice I start to get itchy feet after about a year, like it's time to get moving again.
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Date: 2006-03-04 08:15 pm (UTC)I can understand that, too. I don't regret moving away from home, but at the same time, I miss being able to see my family whenever I want. I have friends who live near their parents and brothers and sisters, and sometimes I envy them. At the same time, when I do see my family, it's the best treat ever. We really enjoy each other, and we really talk and feel close and appreciate one another, and who knows? Maybe we'd totally take each other for granted if we lived closer.
In the end, I love both Winchester brothers, and their bond fascinates me. It's totally why I watch the show!
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:53 pm (UTC)i scanned most of the comments, and there's just so much *stuff* in them. alot of it seems to centre around their talk in Shadow about things going back to the way they were, being a family, and what they want.
one thing i've learned watching the show (and i *seriously* need to rewatch all the eps "just cause") and writing fanfic, is that Sam is much more complex than most people (including Dean and Dad) realise. just from me writing the seven i've completed and the one i'm currently writing (although that's a Dean-fic), i find it difficult to write Sam, for the simple reason i need to *think* about him... he's got so many layers, emotions, thoughts, smarts, dilemmas....and Dean? he's just a give-it-a-snarky-smart-ass-answer (or blow it to pieces with a shotgun) and he's good to go.
there's more to Sam, and that's also why i have to rewatch everything... i get more out of seeing things another time. :)
again, great thought-provoking post :) hope there's more to come :)
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Date: 2006-03-04 08:19 pm (UTC)Yay for our show!
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Date: 2006-03-04 07:59 pm (UTC)In any case, Dean is my favourite, but I love Sam, too. It's not an easy situation from any side. Sam, as the youngest, as the baby of the family, is probably used - on some level - to being catered to by John, and especially Dean. (There is zero evidence of this, since we've got sketchy information on their growing up, but that's my take on it.) He's used to being protected, he's used to being taken care of, and yeah, he's used to fighting really hard, his life has not been easy on any level, but he's grown up knowing that someone has his back, always. He's been allowed to think of himself, first, which I don't think Dean has ever had the luxury of doing. (Not to say that Dean can't be selfish, because he can.) I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I can't think of how else to put it.
I'd be interested to know where people's sympathies lie depending on their birth order. Do older siblings identify more with Dean, and younger siblings with Sam? Is it totally random?
I do agree with what someone else said in a previous comment, that you're supposed to be sympathizing with Sam. Sam's the one who got "kicked out" of the family, Sam's the one who's girlfriend died, Sam's the one with visions and migraines, Sam's the one who's been dragged back into the life of terror that he's tried so hard to escape from. You're supposed to feel bad for Sam. It's just not working very well, and whether that has to do with how hard JA is rocking the Dean role, or if it's how big JA's eyes are in his emotional scenes, or if it's just ineffective writing, or what, I don't know. Or maybe it's like that line from Veronica Mars, where she says that the villain is the one who leaves, and the hero is the one who stays (which I don't think is true, I'm just saying).
I don't know what I'm trying to say anymore, because I really do agree with every single thing you said in your post. And I love Sam, I do feel bad for Sam, I don't think he's being unreasonable or overly selfish or immature. I love him, and he was so kind in the scene where he had to tell Dean that he still didn't want this life, and you can see that he loves Dean, you can see it in every single scene they have together. I don't know why it's a requirement that you have to choose one brother or the other, when they're both so lovely and sad in their own ways.
Sam and Dean!
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Date: 2006-03-04 08:27 pm (UTC)I totally hear you. I'm the eldest child in my family, and I do think that oldest children do emotional work, have responsibilities that younger children never do and don't even realize is going on. My brother never heard in his life: Look out for your sister. But that was a constant refrain directed at me. And it absolutely makes a difference in how you approach the world and what you think you're entitled to. I wouldn't call my brother selfish for that, and I don't think he owes me anything for any care I gave him when we were kids. So that's how I feel about Sam vis a vis Dean, as well.
I'd be interested to know where people's sympathies lie depending on their birth order. Do older siblings identify more with Dean, and younger siblings with Sam? Is it totally random?
I think it definitely has roots in one's own personal experience, although it's probably not easily predictable. As I said, I'm the oldest, and I identify with Sam.
I don't know why it's a requirement that you have to choose one brother or the other, when they're both so lovely and sad in their own ways.
That's the truest thing of all! Yay Sam and Dean!
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Date: 2006-03-04 08:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-04 11:41 pm (UTC)Some people really seem to have a Martyr Dean thing going on, and meh. I hate martyrs. And I honestly don't think Dean feels like one. In fact, that's one of the things I love about Dean. He could be emotionally manipulative with Sam to get what he wants. "I carried you out of the fire when you were little, and you won't do this one little thing for me!" But he never does, because he's too honorable for that. *loves both boys*
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Date: 2006-03-04 09:28 pm (UTC)And in conclusion, if you won't allow me to bear your children, let me at least start a cult in your honor.
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Date: 2006-03-04 11:43 pm (UTC)